np: SS UU Stage 5: Change is Gonna Come (Diggersby & Venusaur BANNED)

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pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
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I would love to see a Slowking ban right now for a few reasons:
  • The free momentum it gives with Teleport + Regenerator + Boots is so OP because it can come in on so many mons. It can even come in on Toxic without cleric support because it never stays in long enough for Toxic to add up, this really only matters vs Sub Keldeo. Unlike Blissey, you don't need to spend time - or even a move slot - on instant Recovery because Regenerator is just so powerful
  • It can pair and abuse basically any medium strong physical attacker in the tier because Future Sight is so powerful when paired with Regen + Teleport
  • Jirachi, the other big question in the tier, is also problematic but I think that's more of a case of how many powerful sets it has and the fact it can hit everything in the tier for x2 damage. It's clear Slowking has been abusing one set - Teleport + Scald + Future Sight with either max defense or max special attack. What I'm saying is there's no mystery to why Slowking may be broken, we all know what it does by now, let's just decide it's fate
  • It's created a new playstyle - offensive semi stall. This post expands on this fourth point.
We often ban Pokemon for different reasons. Chansey was banned obviously mainly for defensive and supportive reasons with astounding bulk, support movepool, and Teleport for momentum. Gengar was banned as it was a fast and incredibly powerful offensive threat, nothing could really defend properly against it.

Perhaps the reason we haven't openly talked about a Slowking ban in this thread, according to a quick search, is that it is not clearly a defensive nor offensive threat. And it's not propping up an uncompetitive or OP playstyle like Ninetales did for Aurora Veil and Torkoal does for Sun with Venusaur.

But actually, I think we should look at Slowking as similar to ALL of these broken Pokemon. Offensively, when combined with even a moderate threat like Escavalier or Doublade, Future Sight becomes nearly impossible to tank, necessitating the use of Protect Pokemon for defense like Protect Blissey, Umbreon, and Jirachi. But Defensively, Slowking provides free Teleports and is shockingly hard to kill with Regenerator + HDB + above average bulk. For example, it easily stays in on Rotom-W's Volt Switch.

If you play UU, you probably knew all of this already, although you may disagree with me that this qualifies as broken. That's fine.

Something I'd like to add to this conversation then is this short point: we can think of Slowking as broken on playstyles now because it's creating it's own playstyle, just as Ninetales Alolan can create an Dual Screen playstyle for itself. That playstyle, is what I would call offensive semi stall.

I'm talking about teams like this: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/new-boot-goofin.3667675/#post-8544501

By semi stall, all I mean is a core of at least 3 and probably 4 defensive Pokemon that use at least 2 offensive Pokemon to break opposing defenses and still have enough defensive synergy to check strong wall breakers. Offensive semi stall warps this and makes those 2+ offensive Pokemon much stronger in breaking down opposing defenses.

There's an incredible amount of bulk on this team with Skarm Bliss and Palossand and Slowking. That's nothing new though, we had bulkier full stall teams for ages. Some people might argue there really wasn't stall so far in this generation, I would disagree, but in any case, that only adds to my argument that Slowking is creating a new playstyle.

What is new about this team is how powerful it is, despite not having any very powerful attacker. Future Sight augments the relatively moderately powered Rotom-C and Mienshao to the point they become essentially unwallable without Protect. That's fine for stall teams, which now have Blissey and Umbreon as standard Pokemon (even Sylveon hates taking max SpA Future Sight which is why I don't include it). But this just dismantles AND outlasts more common bulky offense and balanced cores, who are used to using Pokemon like Weezing Galar to counter Mienshao.

It's not as if you can stop Slowking - very few Pokemon can OHKO it and if you don't OHKO it, just one or two switches gets Slowking back to a reasonable amount of health. Slowking is clearly the keystone to this incredible playstyle. Nevertheless, Slowking can fit on many more different teams. But offensive semi stall is something that should be on our radars.

I hope this makes you think Slowking is broken. Even more so, I hope this provides clarity for people who already thought Slowking was broken but couldn't pin point why.
 

Nat

is a Top Tiering Contributor
UUPL Champion
I'm not a UU player and have really only been bothering w/ the tier for UU Open but I think slowking is acceptable within the current meta. While it's true that it has decent natural bulk+teleport/regen, I feel it's definitely exploitable and I'll try to detail that here. The two sets I have in mind are max spatk and max def.

I think max spatk is super easy to wittle overall, even with common top threats. Lycanroc LO crunch does 84-98. LO terrak cleanly 2hkos. Craw obliterates it, mimikyu pressures it to scald and does 75-89 w/ LO, ttar obliterates it, etc. Even offensive rotom-mow has a chance to donk it. Kyurem laughs at it and forces it out. There's others like obstagoon, LO mienfoo being annoying, heracross, chandy, sharpedo, toxt, etc. Krook has a chance to as well, and with barely any chip (ie one round of toxic chip) it's a clean kill. You can argue for colbur but boots is what is generally believed to push it over the edge. pif mentions toxic being useless but toxic+taking damage typically does add up to more than regen. If you land a knock on it (really not hard w/ how much in the tier learns knock, even defensive things king may come in on) then it loses hazard immunity in a hazard-happy tier. There's also a thousand things that learn trick viably here, and hamper it significantly.

Max defense does eat some of the listed above mons, but either cant reliably dish it back or takes wayyyy more than regen if it's just teleporting. This variant would be generally accepted to be a defensive wall on teams, so would be obligated to often switch in on things and not have the luxury of eating 1x directly into teleport. It also gets laughed at even by things like toad since it cant directly damage back, and just eats a tox/knock. in terms of weezing-galar it psyshocks for like 35. if it's neutralizing gas then it loses regen, too. This is only a couple of examples since i gtg, i'll amend more on later if i feel like it.

Future sight+a fighting type or other synergy-based weapon has been a pretty standard traditional strategy in a lot of lower tiers over multiple gens, idt this variant pushes it over the edge. I'd write more but i'm in a rush. The gist of this would be "not broken, just unique and brings a different element to the meta, definitely manageable."
 
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kumiko

formerly TDK
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Going to make a brief announcement. We'll be voting on the remaining 5 UUBL Pokemon (Diggersby, Dracozolt, Haxorus, Ninetales-Alola, and Venusaur) between now and Sunday night. I won't be explaining as to why some of these Pokemon could be more balanced now, as for one most were somewhat recent bans, but also the metagame has changed a lot and it would take a while to go over the changes for every single one. These Pokemon, if unbanned, won't be freed for the upcoming round of UU open, in case anyone was wondering.

We also have been actively discussing what we want to do next. We'll be looking into potentially voting on the top dogs in the meta right now in the near future, but I believe we're reaching a point again where we can chill out with Council votes and conduct another suspect test. At the moment, the most actively discussed things are Jirachi, Lycanroc-Dusk, and Terrakion, on top of a lot of discussion today for Slowking. Hogg and I are discussing conducting a survey, much like we did for OU, the specifics are still up in the air but it's something we're looking at getting started in the next few days.
 
This has already been discussed at the beginning of the tier shifts, but why didn't the council just unban all of UUBL from the beginning if they ended up voting on all of UUBL anyway? Voting on all of UUBL Pokémon on separate slates wouldn't be an accurate way of estimating how balanced a Pokémon is because less UUBL and more quickbans of OU drops lower the tier's power level. Most UUBL Pokémon are broken if voted separately, but together they may have a chance of being balanced.

The way I see it, it's basically a choice between quick stability or more accurate judgements. Unbanning everything would be chaos for UU since there would be even more threats to watch out for. Plus, the trickle down effects would be especially devastating for the lower tiers as there would be two batches of returning Pokémon and multiple tier shifts happening at different periods (to put things into perspective, PU banned old Pokémon due to move tutors and some returning NFEs, then unbanned most of PUBL after the tier shifts, then quickbanned a bunch of threats before another tier shift comes along). However, it would be a more accurate way of representing which UUBL and OU drops are truly banworthy since they all interacted at the highest power level. I just want to ask why the council chose to have separate voting slates for this DLC and would they also follow the same plan for the next one?

Lastly, the council might as well vote on Drizzle seeing as it's the last UU ban that also happens to heavily interact with Ninetales-A and Venusaur/Drought. It wouldn't hurt for them to cover all of the UU bans at this point.
 
This has already been discussed at the beginning of the tier shifts, but why didn't the council just unban all of UUBL from the beginning if they ended up voting on all of UUBL anyway? Voting on all of UUBL Pokémon on separate slates wouldn't be an accurate way of estimating how balanced a Pokémon is because less UUBL and more quickbans of OU drops lower the tier's power level. Most UUBL Pokémon are broken if voted separately, but together they may have a chance of being balanced.
This would works if UUBL had both offensive and defensive threats. However most of them are just straight up strong breakers so if we allowed them all together at once, the tier couldn't handle it because there would not be enough defensive answers to that much power creep. By allowing / testing some UUBL one after the other, it allows us to see the real impact of each one on the metagame. The aim isn't to have a insanely power creep in Underused where the whole metagame is basically "broken checks broken".

Also we didn't re-tested every UUBL even tho we voted for all of them. Drizzle is probably still too much for the tier considering all the abusers this archetype has so if the council didn't vote on it yet it's probably because we're thinking it's not worth it.
 
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Also we didn't re-tested every UUBL even tho we voted for all of them. Drizzle is probably still too much for the tier considering all the abusers this archetype has so if the council didn't vote on it yet it's probably because we're thinking it's not worth it.
Yeah I mentioned in my post that you only voted on all UUBL Pokémon but not retest them since some UUBL Pokémon are clearly broken in the context of the metagame. I personally don't see the harm of voting on Drizzle since it's the last thing not discussed. Half of the bans were voted not to be retested, so I think Drizzle should at least

Anyway, broken is relative. Haxorus is broken in UU, but barely viable in OU. In a tier of UU+UUBL where the power level is higher, Haxorus may or may not be balanced, but we would never know unless it's actually tested. I normally wouldn't question the council's decisions if it were a small sample size since it would be easy to predict the metagame, but the larger the number of Pokémon, the more less accurate your predictions are since there are too many factors affecting how banworthy some Pokémon are.

Example Haxorus would be more manageable with Primarina and Weavile in addition to current Pokémon like Skarmory, Mamoswine, Jirachi, etc. Primarina would be more manageable with Gengar and Venusaur. Weavile would be more manageable with Conkeldurr and Durant, and so on. Of course, this is just theorizing so I may be wrong, but the only way to truly know is to test instead of vote.
 
Example Haxorus would be more manageable with Primarina and Weavile in addition to current Pokémon like Skarmory, Mamoswine, Jirachi, etc. Primarina would be more manageable with Gengar and Venusaur. Weavile would be more manageable with Conkeldurr and Durant, and so on. Of course, this is just theorizing so I may be wrong, but the only way to truly know is to test instead of vote
This is the mindset of "broken check broken"
If some UUBL mons are balance bc of another UUBL they dont need a retest.

-SD Scale Shot :Haxorus: loock broken asf
-:dracozolt: is maneagable with the excelent ground types rn in the tier. Also 75 speed is so slow for a offensive mon.
-:Diggersby: is insane in a metagame with no good ground resist.
-:Grimmsnarl: > :ninetales alola:
-:Venusaur: will make Sun Great Again, but i wanted to see a defensive Venusaur in the tier.
 
This is the mindset of "broken check broken"
If some UUBL mons are balance bc of another UUBL they dont need a retest.

-SD Scale Shot :Haxorus: loock broken asf
-:dracozolt: is maneagable with the excelent ground types rn in the tier. Also 75 speed is so slow for a offensive mon.
-:Diggersby: is insane in a metagame with no good ground resist.
-:Grimmsnarl: > :ninetales alola:
-:Venusaur: will make Sun Great Again, but i wanted to see a defensive Venusaur in the tier.
Agree with you on majority of your points. Lack of ground resists means diggersby will still be too much, haxorus has a new toy in scale shot that gives it even more breaking power. It still has 4MSS, at least in my opinion, and has more revenge killers in the tier like mamo, keldeo, mimkyu, scarf porygon-z, and starmie. I feel its choice band sets will be the most effective, running stab+eq, CC, and poison jab to hit the majority of the tier. Still too much, but i feel it's more plausable than diggersby. Dracozolt im still torn between wanting to retest it due to strong grounds and lowered speed tier, yet it has so much breaking power that im unsure. Id be open for a retest the same way i was about durant, probably broken but worth a shot anyway.
In terms of venusaur, drought, and drizzle, I would lowk be down to see both venu-drought and drizzle in the same tier just to see how they both go up against each other. If not, I still want to see how the metagame would adjust to venusaurs reintroduction.
However, i disagree with the idea that grimnsarl is better than alola tails. I feel that grimsnarl, despite me thinking it was going to be crazy broken when it dropped, is much more manageable in the tier. I feel alola tails' ability to set up screens in 1 move rather than 2 and it;s offensive presence makes it better than grimsnarl.

All in all, dont retest diggersby and alolan ninetails, retest dracozolt and venusaur, haxorus i could go either way.
 
This has already been discussed at the beginning of the tier shifts, but why didn't the council just unban all of UUBL from the beginning if they ended up voting on all of UUBL anyway? Voting on all of UUBL Pokémon on separate slates wouldn't be an accurate way of estimating how balanced a Pokémon is because less UUBL and more quickbans of OU drops lower the tier's power level. Most UUBL Pokémon are broken if voted separately, but together they may have a chance of being balanced.
This is sort of what I suggested back when the DLC dropped, but it's too late to do it now. I think it'd be a good idea when the next set of DLC drops though and the tier gets another huge influx of new mons from OU. I mean, if OU gets totally shaken up, might as well shake up UU too and see what sticks. I'm glad they are at least testing things individually now though - back when I was suggesting this nothing had been re-tested yet.

But again, waaaaaaaaaay too late to do a total unban and retest now, will have to wait for next DLC drops to do it, if the council decides to do it that way.

Also, I do think that Ninetales-A can help balance out a lot of the offensive powerhouses in UUBL if there was a total unban and re-test for all of them. Except Durant.
 
Also, I do think that Ninetales-A can help balance out a lot of the offensive powerhouses in UUBL if there was a total unban and re-test for all of them. Except Durant.
Aurora Veil being free would do the exact opposite of what you're saying it will do here. It'll make screens HO completely unbearable and cause several wallbreakers to disappear or just get banned again anyways. Honestly, I don't think any of the UUBL's are retestable currently, and we should focus on what we got at the moment.

As far as Lycanroc, Terrakion, and Jirachi are concerned, or at least Jirachi and Terrakion as I havent fought or used Lycan at all, I think we should public suspect these. These are both pokemon which there isn't really a fine line or whether its broken or if it's completely negative for the tier. Personally, I would vote Ban on Terrakion and probably abstain on Jirachi. Terrakion in my view is just wildly monstorous, as if you cant Edge/CC/Quake it, it's probably prone to Toxic, which is kinda stupid how it doesn't lose anything the majority of the time clicking Toxic, at least from my experience. Jirachi is a weird case for me because it being a good steel and a good utility mon is healthy for the tier considering the threats running around, but at the same time, it's offensive capabilities as far as movepools and sets are concerned is kinda dumb because each set has a different answer, which you cant run them all. I could probably go either way with Rachi, but right now im leaning towards ban/abstain.
 
Pers
This is the mindset of "broken check broken"
If some UUBL mons are balance bc of another UUBL they dont need a retest.

-SD Scale Shot :Haxorus: loock broken asf
-:dracozolt: is maneagable with the excelent ground types rn in the tier. Also 75 speed is so slow for a offensive mon.
-:Diggersby: is insane in a metagame with no good ground resist.
-:Grimmsnarl: > :ninetales alola:
-:Venusaur: will make Sun Great Again, but i wanted to see a defensive Venusaur in the tier.
i agree with what your saying and yes i think venusaur shouldnt be compatible with drought and other sets for venusaur could do nicely in uu. dracozolt and ninetales i would like to see unbanned because ninetales is outsped by alot of scarfers like jirachi and darmanitan and things like the lycanrocs talonflame and barrasweda to beat it .Dracozolt is honestly fine because of its low speed and ground types like krookodile rhyperior and mamoswine to stop its bolt beak antics.
 
I've been hoping that Venusaur gets retested ever since the first round of do-overs, as I feel that there are a good amount of UU mons who are capable of countering or checking Venu, and Sun isn't as good anymore since Ttar disrupts the weather that makes these teams work. What makes the situation with Venusaur complicated is that bringing back Venu inherently means that we would have to potentially reconsider Sun in UU. It's an obvious "rock and a hard place" scenario: without Drought, Chlorophyll Venu is hardly too much for the tier, and without Chlorophyll Venu, Sun has not been particularly overwhelming in UU. It's really the combo that's the problem. In terms of what could happen:
1. Venusaur is fine
In this scenario, Venu is simply deemed healthy for the tier and we get it back. Should this happen, then the debate about Sun doesn't even need to happen (at least not yet).
2. Venusaur is too much, and is singled out as the problem
Certainly a possibility, this would simply send Venu back to UUBL. Really, whether or not we do this depends on the question of whether Sun would still be problematic without Venu. You'd naturally assume the answer is still no; however, Ninetales was recently buffed with the addition of Scorching Sands, a rather excellent coverage move for it. This means that Tales can more easily justify its place on a team outside of just setting Sun, combined with Sun-boosted STAB and Solar Beams to form a solid attacking core. Of course, Tales being better would also potential mean that Sun could be much better even without Venu. As such, I feel it could also be possible that-
3. Drought is deemed too much, and is banned in place of Venusaur.
While a Drought ban would naturally be more complicated than simply rebanning Venusaur, I feel this is something we might at least want to consider. As previously stated in regards to the Ninetales buff, Sun could potentially pick up a fair amount of momentum in the coming weeks. You may point out that Tales still hasn't become proper UU, but keep in mind just how chaotic the meta is right now; it's possible that Tales is legitimately great in UU and we just haven't realized it yet because of all the other toys we have to play with. Naturally, this course of action might result in Venu being temporarily rebanned while Sun is reevaluated, as that would let us more accurately gage how Sun would operate even without Venu, as there are other potentially Chloro sweepers like Shiftry. Shiftry is probably the main reason I would support a hypothetical look at Sun, as while not as strong as Venu it still has the potential to be scary between attack boosting in Swords Dance and Nasty Plot, the ability to attack from either side of the spectrum, decent STAB combo and access to Sun-boosted Heat Wave; as such, I think it could become a sizeable threat if Sun does rebound. Also, sun-boosted Darm is scary.

Those three are the most likely options. However, there is a potential fourth option here:
4. Drought + Chlorophyll Ban
Established as potential precedent by the complex Drizzle + Swift Swim ban of BW OU, this would see a ban on using Drought and Chlorophyll on the same team. Without Chlorophyll, Venu would still be a solid choice for Sun while being considerably easier to revenge kill by the legion of faster offensive mons; this would also allow Sun a legitimate role in the UU meta without being broken. I admit, this wouldn't be a perfect solution; the implementation of that original complex ban was a bit controversial, and would need more support to be implemented. Still, it is a possibility since, again, neither Drought nor ChloroVenu is really OP without the other.

I'd definitely prefer for Venu to just- not be broken (which I would argue it isn't). Still, my predictions for what was going to be retested haven't been perfect thus far (though of course Durant was still broken), so I acknowledge that options 2-4 might be necessary.
 
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kumiko

formerly TDK
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Four-Time Past WCoP Champion
Hey all, apologies for not getting this in yesterday.

As I said before, we voted on the remaining 5 UUBL Pokemon; Diggersby, Dracozolt, Haxorus, Ninetales-Alola, and Venusaur. And here are the results...



Dracozolt, Haxorus, and Ninetales-Alola will remain banned. Diggersby and Venusaur will be unbanned, at least for the time being. Tagging Marty and The Immortal to make the changes on PS whenever they have the time; thanks!

As with the other previous votes, these two Pokemon will be voted on again in the very immediate future. Expect a decision and another vote to occur between now and this Sunday. Friendly reminder these Pokemon aren't legal in this round of UU open.

:Diggersby: :Venusaur:

It's been a while. Diggersby has been banned for over 5 months now; all the way back when it Pokemon Home dropped, and it can now legally use Knock Off again. The metagame has changed a lot since then; Pokemon home drastically changed the look of the metagame and given us a lot more tools. It's a lot faster, we have a lot more Ground resists/immunes, and a lot more just overall good Pokemon. Diggersby definitely doesn't have the same presence it did before, Pokemon such as Cobalion, Skarmory, and Terrakion have all entered the metagame and are incredible tools to help combat Diggersby. However, Diggersby still has the potential to be absolutely insane. SD + Fire Punch / Thunder Punch can muscle past Skarmory, while Cobalion and Terrakion are by no means Pokemon capable of switching in. Diggersby can also utilize Agility, and the two fast Fighting-types will simply get cooked by STAB Earthquake rather than shrugging off a Quick Attack. Scarf Diggersby also has a lot of utility, its speed tier is ideal in this metagame, it's quite powerful, and it has access to U-turn and Knock Off, two of the best possible moves in this metagame. Diggersby could, of course, be insanely broken still and simply be too much, but it also has the potential to be overshadowed by other powerful breakers and simply be unable to be a reliable pick in this metagame.

Venusaur, on the other hand, is surely fresh in everyone's minds. Sun was running rampant for a while, and we had to look into what was the issue at hand, whether it be Drought, Darmanitan, and / or Venusaur. Ultimately we voted to ban Venusaur. But now the metagame, again, has changed quite a bit. Most notably, one of, if not the, most dominant OU Pokemon ever has fallen to UU, and could prove to be useful at putting a stop to Sun teams. Tyranitar may not be able to reliably take on Grass-type STAB moves from Venusaur, but with its incredible bulk alongside it setting Sand up, it may be an incredible tool at putting a stop to Venusaurs dominance. Since its ban, other things have rose in utility as well. AV Reuniclus is incredible, and is a good bet to shrug off powerful special moves from Venusaur. We now have Talonflame, who, if fully healthy, is the best and most reliable way to revenge kill Venusaur, thanks to Gale Wings. Things like Jirachi and Skarmory can even be useful, as without Sun up, Venusaur may struggle to take them on, as they are fully capable of shrugging off boosted STAB moves from Venusaur and dealing significant damage back. However, even with all of this, Venusaur is more than capable of getting around all of these Pokemon, and may simply prove to be too much. Another thing that the UU metagame didn't really capitalize on when Venusaur was still around is Solar Power Charizard, who has been seeing usage in this metagame even without Venusaur. Drought in general may prove to be the bigger issue here this time around, but there's still time to look into what the primary cause is. However, another thing that has been seeing usage in OU is setting sun without Drought, through things like Sunny Day + Teleport Blissey holding a Heat Rock, so labeling Drought as the issue is definitely questionable, even if Charizard or another non-Venusaur abuser proves to be the root of the issue. But Venusaur may very well still be it, and we'll find out in the coming days.

That's pretty much it. The survey I mentioned before is still in the works, and we aren't gonna make any real progress with it while we're looking into these Pokemon that have been freed. It'll be happening at some point in the near future though.
 
Honestly if alolan ninetales was unbanned alongside venasaur i think venasaur would be a lot more manageable.Not only is alolan ninetales a actual good hail setter but it could use venasaur as aurora viel setup bait since it could easily force out vensaur now that drought is gone and that it outspeeds ohkos it with blizzard(Although it would still have to watch out for sludge bomb).
 
Honestly if alolan ninetales was unbanned alongside venasaur i think venasaur would be a lot more manageable.Not only is alolan ninetales a actual good hail setter but it could use venasaur as aurora viel setup bait since it could easily force out vensaur now that drought is gone and that it outspeeds ohkos it with blizzard(Although it would still have to watch out for sludge bomb).
Its not coming back. Thats not even why alolatails was banned in the first place. Being able to set screens in 1 turn ia stupid and uncompetitve, let alone be able to outrun and threaten most defoggers. I dont know how many more people its gonna take trying to free this disgusting playstyle before the tier collapses from sheer ignorance.
 
Its not coming back. Thats not even why alolatails was banned in the first place. Being able to set screens in 1 turn ia stupid and uncompetitve, let alone be able to outrun and threaten most defoggers. I dont know how many more people its gonna take trying to free this disgusting playstyle before the tier collapses from sheer ignorance.
Im not trying to justify bringing alolan ninetales back(The council already decided on it so there is no point arguing unbanning it).Im simply stating the fact alolan ninetales would be a good check to venasaur if it was theoretically unbanned.(Which might be important to note for the future with DLC 2 coming,by then maybe alolan ninetales will be unbanned maybe not)
 
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